A must listen to interview
NOW in 2009
Sunday, 13 March 2005
Flash Back
http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/stories/s1321407.htm
This week three people with a critical role to play in determining the fate of Schepelle Corby, - Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, sister Mercedes Corby and businessman Ron Bakir who is paying for the recently hired Australian lawyer .What evidence do they need, how are the family coping and what if anything can the government do to help.
ABC Interview
http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/sto ... 005_28.asx
Monica Attard
Hello, Monica Attard here and you’re listening to Sunday Profile.
Tonight the trial of Schapelle Corby, the 27-year-old Australian who’s facing the death penalty in Indonesia for allegedly smuggling 4.20 kilograms of Marijuana into Bali.
Mercedes Corby had no idea what hell the next five months would hold for her and her family when she received a phone call last October to say her sister was being questioned by Indonesian customs. Schapelle Corby arrived in Bali on a holiday. She checked in her luggage including a boogie board bag to Brisbane International Airport and she says that the first she knew of the 4 kilograms of Marijuana was when she went to collect her luggage at Denpasar Airport. Customs officers opened the boogie board bag and there were the drugs. But getting evidence to prove her story, that she hadn’t placed the drugs in her bag has been a trial in itself. The CCTV film of her checking in her luggage is nowhere to be found. Then there’s the question of the Australian Federal Police were asked or offered to test the Marijuana to find out whether it was in fact grown in Australia or was Indonesian grown. Well now all attention is focused on the baggage handler at Brisbane airport, who was he or she and what did they see.
First tonight to Mercedes’ sister Corby who sees her sister daily Bali prison, what happened the night her sister was arrested?
Mercedes Corby
Yes, really different. I’ve seen a different side of Bali that I didn’t think was there.
Monica:
What do you mean by that?
Mercedes:
Just things that, you know I love Bali but just, usually people don’t have to deal with someone being in jail.
Monica:
Can you tell us about the night that Schapelle was arrested?
Mercedes:
Just, you know, I got the call from Katrina and I first thought she was joking and then she put a policeman onto me and then when I actually got to customs they were all in a room and there was just customs officers everywhere and when I’ve seen the stuff in the middle of the room it was a shock, like my legs collapsed and a lot of it’s still a bit of a blur but it’s still really scary.
Monica:
And what was Schapelle’s demeanour then, how was she?
Mercedes:
She was in shock, she was just there with her head in her hands and, yes…shock.
Monica:
And so what was your involvement at that point? What were you saying, what were you doing?
Mercedes:
I was asking a lot of questions with the police and I was asking while they were all touching her to take fingerprints. They were asking her to sign forms, statements and I said, “No, don’t sign them”. Then when we finally left I got a hold of the Australian consulate and got an English speaking lawyer for her.
Monica:
And when you contacted the Australian consular officials what was their reaction?
Mercedes:
I can’t remember. It was like 11.30 at night and I just told them what happened. I think I did most of the talking. I don’t think they really spoke much and then they rang me back with the names and phone numbers of some English speaking lawyers and then the next morning the at the police station the consulate was there.
Monica:
Did you think at that time that your sister would still be in jail, 5 months later facing the death penalty?
Mercedes:
No, I don’t know. I didn’t really think at that time, it was just panic and shock that…no, I didn’t think it would be like this.
Monica:
Did you think there was a possibility that this claim could be true?
Mercedes:
No, never.
Monica:
Are you scared for Schapelle now?
Mercedes:
Yes, I’m really scared but I just don’t think about the bad things I just think, try and think positive. That’s all we can do.
Monica:
How often do you see her?
Mercedes:
Everyday. Sometimes I don’t see her Saturday/Sundays because there’s no visiting. Occasionally they’ll let her visit, but everyday during the week, sometimes twice.
Monica:
And have you seen any change in her in the time that she’s been in jail?
Mercedes:
Yeah she’s trying stronger than I ever thought she was. She’s really strong but then I don’t know what she’s like when she goes back to her room by herself but in front of us she’s strong.
Monica:
Does she tell you much about how she is living there?
Mercedes:
Yes, she tells us a bit but I don’t think she, she doesn’t go into full detail because she doesn’t want us to worry anymore than we already are.
Monica:
Is she satisfied that she’s getting the help that she needs, legally from the Australian government?
Mercedes:
Legally yes. We know our lawyers are doing all they can and now that we’ve also got help from Mr Ronan and Robyn the lawyer in Australia, yes, we’re feeling good.
Monica:
And she’s happy with the help she’s getting from the Australian government?
Mercedes:
Well, yes when she gets it I suppose. I think she’s happy that she knows that she might get some help.
Monica:
What do you mean?
Mercedes:
Well, what help have they given so far?
Monica:
So she doesn’t think they have helped her?
Mercedes:
She hasn’t really said anything, she doesn’t know that, I’m just asking, “What help have they already given her?”
Monica:
What do you think; do you think they’ve given her any help?
Mercedes:
The consulate has made sure that she’s in good health and come and visit her but so far, they will I’m sure. They’ve just been watching and they’ll step in when the time is right because they can’t just come in, it’s an Indonesian court system. They can’t just come in and start overtaking it. I think they’ve just got to watch and make sure things are going the way it’s meant to.
Monica:
What do you talk about when you visit Schapelle?
Mercedes:
Just, what I’m doing, the kids, food, sometimes a bit about the case…just who I’ve had to see and maybe talk about the court and just normal things that everybody talks about. We never talk about the, I don’t even want to say the word, what penalties they want to give her and stuff. We don’t talk about that.
Monica:
You don’t talk about that at all?
Mercedes:
No.
Monica:
Because you’re confident that she’ll walk free?
Mercedes:
I hope so, but why talk about it? Just, we’ve got to stay positive and if we talk about it, it will just bring us down and we can’t. We have to stay strong.
Monica:
So how is the rest of the family coping?
Mercedes:
Dad’s probably taking it the hardest, the rest of us just…I don’t know. I don’t know what the word is.
Monica:
You’re just coping?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
Now you’re giving evidence in court next week is that right?
Mercedes:
Yes, as far as I know, yes.
Monica:
And that will be about the night that you were called to the airport?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you saw?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you were told?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you said?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
Can you tell us you know, what you will be telling the court in detail?
Mercedes:
I don’t’ know what they’re going to ask me but the main thing is just going to be that I asked them to check the fingerprints and tell them to stop touching the bag and that’s really it. I don’t have too much to say really. I think the witnesses last week were the most important and if we can get people from the airport, Brisbane Airport.
Monica:
So Mercedes will you stay now in Bali until this is all over?
Mercedes:
Yes, I’ll stay here.
Monica:
Okay. Mercedes I thank you very very much for your time.
Mercedes:
Okay, thank you.
Monica:
Mercedes Corby, Schapelle Corby’s sister.
Well, Ron Bakir is a Gold Coast mobile phone entrepreneur who’s decided to bank roll the Corby case but why did he want to get involved to begin with?
Ron:
This whole case does not make sense to me from the start to the finish. All I want to do is ensure that Michelle Corby gets given a fair trial, that all the evidence be put before the court to ensure that she gets a fair trial.
Monica:
But why did you feel the need to get involved?
Ron:
Because nobody else was, the Australian government definitely were not. Indonesian lawyers have been trying to get certain information from the Australian government for the past five months, since the eighth of October, the day she was arrested and they’ve been getting absolutely nothing.
Monica:
It must be costing you a fortune.
Ron:
Yes, I guess but it’s not an issue of money because money can be spent and, but money goes and money comes but when Schapelle Corby’s life goes you can never get it back.
Monica:
why have you requested the involvement of Australian lawyers when she actually has lawyers acting for her in Indonesia?
Ron:
Sure, that’s a very good question and the reason for that is the Indonesian lawyers can only do so much, being so far. They need information from Australian lawyers because all of the information took place in Australia. From the moment she walked into Brisbane airport to the moment she handed in her baggage at the Carousel to the moment she walked over her oversized baggage to the oversized counter and through the Sydney terminal until she got to Bali. All of that process, all of those information need to be supplied.
Monica:
Can you clear up a few issues for us or help us to clear them up in our own heads at least? There has been some dispute as to the CCTV evidence, the tapes. Some people say that the cameras weren’t working in Brisbane International Airport that day, others say that the evidence, the tapes were working but that the…they were destroyed within hours, others say that they were destroyed within five days, others believe that they lasted 25 days. Do you know?
Ron:
The Australian government were notified that Schapelle Corby was arrested on the eighth of October. The Australian government and the Australian officials, everyone to do with the security surveillance equipment, everyone to do with the baggage handling and all of that were notified on the ninth of October of her arrest and were notified that certain information like what you just said, the CCTV cameras need to be secured. Like baggage screening devices need to be secured. Now, that has not been done. We get many different responses as you just said, the correct answer is yet to come out but all we do know is that that information is not available. Now, had that information been available Schapelle Corby wouldn’t be sitting in a Bali cell today.
Monica:
Let’s assume that those, that evidence is not going to be available to her defence lawyers. There’s the issue also of the Australian Federal Police, they’re examination or their desire to examine the Marijuana for its origin, their desire to look at the bags to fingerprint them adequately. Now that hasn’t happened. Is that a very major blow to her case?
Ron:
That is detrimental to her case. Look what would have saved Schapelle Corby’s life would have been this: The TV scan images, when you scan your bag.
Monica:
What would they have shown?
Ron:
That would have shown that when she checked in there
A) There was no Cannabis
B) It was impossible for somebody to miss 4 ½ kilos of Cannabis.
When you walk through any international terminal even if you’re trying carry scissors, small scissors, they see it. How can they not see 4 ½ kilos of cannabis?
Monica:
Because it’s metal, one’s metal, one’s not.
Ron:
But you can see it on the screen. You can see anything; you can see paper on the screen.
Monica:
And the AFP examination?
Ron:
The Australian Federal Police say we have requested from the Indonesian authorities and the Indonesian government so we’ve had no request from the Indonesian government and we’ve had no request from the AFP. We said, “Righto, if you’ve made that request, why don’t you give us the request document? You must have sent them a letter and they must have denied it in writing. Why don’t you give us this correspondence?”
Monica:
So you don’t believe the AFP?
Ron:
The way I’ll answer that is this. I need to see and so do the lawyers, need to see the correspondence between both parties so they can go to the courts and say, “These are the correspondence, the Indonesian authorities are denying that the Australian government test this product.” To date we haven’t got that information.
Monica:
Then there’s the issue of the baggage handler at Brisbane International Airport. You met with the Foreign Minister, Mr Alexander Downer last week, you asked him to take some action with Qantas so that Qantas would provide you with the name of the baggage handler, has that happened?
Ron:
Yes, that has happened. We’ve spoken to Qantas on numerous occasions, Qantas is being very helpful in producing that, those documentation and the name of the baggage handler but we’re yet to see it. And, I need to stress the importance of this: everybody involved in this, Qantas, Alexander Downer and the government need to understand that Schapelle Corby does not have weeks, she does not have days, we are working with hours and if this is not produced within hours, it’s going to be to the detriment of Schapelle Corby’s life.
Monica:
What do you hope that the baggage handler is going to tell you?
Ron:
That I won’t disclose.
Monica:
But are you hoping that he will say that he checked inside the bag or…
Ron:
I cannot answer that question.
Monica:
You believe that perhaps he or she may have been involved in it?
Ron:
That I cannot answer.
Monica:
Do you believe that that person may have seen somebody else tampering with the baggage?
Ron:
That question I cannot answer as well.
Monica:
But you believe that you will get that name and get it soon and that you’ll be able to speak to that person.
Ron:
According to Qantas, yes.
Monica:
Will her lawyers seek to subpoena him to Bali?
Ron:
Her lawyers will be seeking to ask him to attend Bali to give evidence. I just hope that the gentleman that comes forward after we speak to him does go and give evidence of his own free will.
Monica:
How confident are you, at the end f the day that Schapelle Corby will walk free?
Ron:
It’s all a matter of all of the evidence that’s been produces will determine the outcome at the end of the day and I just hope that the CCTV Cameras do end up working and do end up being provided.
Monica:
Ron Bakir, a Gold Coast businessman helping out the Corby family.
Well the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer says the government is doing all it can to help Schapelle Corby but it is not her defence team and ultimately her fate lies in the hands of the Indonesian judicial system. Mr Downer has intervened to persuade Qantas to cooperate with Corby’s lawyers for potential vital information, particularly in relation to the Brisbane Airport baggage handler who checked in Schapelle Corby’s luggage …..but in reality what can the Australian government do to help Schapelle Corby whose case is back in court this week?
Downer:
Well, there are two things. First of all we can provide consular assistance, which we’ve been doing, that’s assistance to her in the prison she’s being held in Bali, but secondly, we can help the defence obtain information. Now that’s not very easy to do because a lot of the information that they would like, which they think would be truly effective is not available. For example, I met with Schapelle Corby’s lawyers earlier this week and we talked through the sorts of evidence they are trying to obtain and look, I me and my office will do what it can to try to help them, for example, talk to Qantas and the like.
Monica:
Can we talk a little bit about those evidentiary issues because they seem to be pretty important, in fact her only chance seems to lie with finding some evidence, visual or by weight, the marijuana was not in her boogie bag when she left Brisbane international airport. Now Qantas says that the evidence, the CCTV tapes have been wiped and that they are in fact wiped within hours of being taken. Do you know for a fact that those particular tapes were wiped within hours?
Downer:
Look, I mean, personally obviously I had nothing to do with it but as I understand it the, that is the normal practice, yes.
Monica:
And those particular tapes were wiped?
Downer:
As far as I know, yes. Of course, you don’t know whether the tapes would be of any use in any case.
Monica:
Because there was as report in a newspaper recently that those tapes were still in existence 25 days after she was arrested.
Downer:
Yes, that I don’t honestly know. I can just tell you what I’ve been told. I mean, obviously I’m not the Minister for the tapes.
Monica:
But there also seems to be dispute over whether or not the cameras were working but presumably if you’ve been in contact with the airport authorities…have you been in contact with the airport authorities?
Downer:
Well my department has, yes.
Monica:
So can we get back to the issue of how fast these tapes appear to have been wiped, I mean within hours? It seems extraordinary really. Is that something that bothers you?
Downer:
Well I don’t know enough about it to be honest; it doesn’t fall within my portfolio.
Monica:
But in relation to, I imagine the broader issue as well or am I wrong in that? To determine perhaps a new regime, a new way of looking at security?
Downer:
No, we don’t have any particular problems with the security at the airports but you know, that obviously is handled by the Department of Transport and Regional Development in consultation with some of our security services. As far as the certain assistance as the Foreign Minister I can provide, then where the defence are having difficulty in obtaining information or in particular sitting down and talking to particular potential witnesses, I have offered to intervene and have been able to intervene, particularly in relation to Qantas.
Monica:
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Downer:
Well, it’s really a matter for the defence. They’ve come to see me. I’ve heard them out. There are bits and pieces of information they would like, I’ve ensured that contact is made including with Qantas to try to get information and as far as I know they are responding pretty positively at this stage.
Monica:
And are they prepared to say who the baggage handler was at Brisbane International Airport?
Downer:
Well you wouldn’t say who these people were publicly but Qantas are getting into discussions now as a result of my intervention with the defence lawyers about that matter.
Monica:
So, it’s basically up to the person involved to say whether or not he or she wishes to be identified?
Downer:
That really is something that Qantas and the lawyers, the defence lawyers are going to sort out themselves.
Monica:
So you’re happy that Qantas are being cooperative?
Downer:
From what I’ve heard so far, they have been cooperative, yes. They’ve been more cooperative since we’ve spoken to them this week.
Monica:
Because I imagine they feel a fair degree of sensitivity on this issue, not only because a women’s life is on the line but also because presumably it’s fairly important to get these issues sorted out, particularly in light of the fight against terror which your government is backing. I mean, are you worried in light of this case that someone could, you know start out form Australia to carry out a terrorist attack somewhere with equipment that manages to escape detection here and yet within a very short period of time all evidence of whatever they might have taken out is destroyed.
Downer:
No, not really. I mean of course, in terms of identifying material being moved out of Australia as distinct from moved into Australia what the authorities look for are bombs and explosives that might kill people on an aeroplane. In particular on an aeroplane that could be used of course at a destination they don’t have a detection system, I don’t know if such a detection system even exists that can just through X-Ray detect drugs. I don’t think there is such a system.
Monica:
But, you know tapes; camera tapes would be able to tape people who were fiddling with luggage, for example.
Downer:
Yes, this is…you’re getting back to the tapes again, yes. Well, I suppose that’s right.
Monica:
It seems fairly critical, does it not?
Downer:
You think, you think if you were a drug trafficker you would be I wouldn’t have thought if you were a drug trafficker. I mean, this is just a hypothesis on my part but I wouldn’t have thought you’d be loading drugs into someone else’s bag in front of a camera.
Monica:
No, but I guess if drugs are found to have been placed in that bag, at this end it doesn’t say all that much about baggage checking procedures, does it?
Downer:
Ah, but you’re making an assumption that that’s what happened. We don’t know if that is what happened, they could have been placed in the bag, perhaps when they arrived in Indonesia.
Monica:
Does this case throw up any issues for government to look at more closely, for you to look at in consultation with the Transport Minister? I mean, what about for example, you know legislating that there are inspections of bags and cars to check what staff who work in aviation security are bringing in and out?
Downer:
Hey, well.
Monica:
I mean, have those discussions taken place at a government level?
Downer:
Sure, they have. We in the Australian government operate on the basis of what is practical, not on what is impractical. There are millions and millions of pieces of baggage that pass through Australian airports every year. If you started a system of inspecting every single one, including for things like drugs, it would create a complete shambles. Of course, in recent times as a result of terrorism there’s been a substantial enhancement of the capacity to inspect baggage coming and out of Australia.
Monica:
But there have also been cases where baggage handlers at Sydney airport have been arrested for innocent human mules to carry drugs aboard for them.
Downer:
Yes, I mean, I don’t know about that. You’d have to talk to the police.
Monica:
Well as the Foreign Minster if Qantas are playing ball and they do tell the defence who the baggage handler was, is there anything that you can do to help ease the issues concerning subpoenaing him to appear in the Corby case in Bali?
Downer:
Well, you know let’s not run ahead of ourselves here, I’m not setting myself up for the defence lawyer for Schapelle Corby. She has her own defence lawyers but I think the main thing is for them to be able to talk to Qantas about what actually happened on the day with the luggage and see whether the baggage handler or the relevant baggage handlers have any useful information to impart or whether they don’t. It’s possible but it’s probably unlikely because I would imagine they check-in, even on that one day they check in hundreds if not thousands of pieces of baggage, whether they’d remember one boogie board bag? Hard to know.
Monica:
And of course five months later even harder to remember no doubt.
Downer:
Yes, of course.
Monica:
And is that something that bothers you as well? The fact that her lawyers and the businessmen backing her case in Queensland claim that she’s basically being cut loose, that the government didn’t act fast enough, they should have jumped on it faster.
Downer:
Well, I’m not exactly sure what the government was supposed to have done. I mean, I, can I just say, with the greatest of respect for people who are campaigning for Schapelle Corby, I do respect them and I understand their concerns. We have a lot of Australians who are in prison and in difficulties overseas. We’re dealing with them everyday and in her particular case where there’s information that is available, obviously that will be provided to the defence lawyers, but where information is not available, there’s nothing that can be done. I mean you can get into a slanging match with the relevant Ministers about whether this tape should have been kept for a longer period or whether some baggage should have been inspected in a particular way and it wasn’t. And, of course you know if you came up with a silver bullet for her defence you’d use it…
Monica:
But she’s facing the death penalty and five days after her arrest they asked for the film.
Downer:
Well you just be, just be…yes well apparently it was wiped within hours or in a very short period of time but just a sec. Let us not hyperventilate over this, the absolute maximum penalty is death. It is not to say that she is certainly going to get the death penalty.
Monica:
Whatever she gets, she’s likely to be in jail, is that correct? If she’s convicted.
Downer:
Well, I mean if she’s convicted. Let’s not assume she’s going to be convicted.
Monica:
Did it bother you when you heard the evidence that the Indonesian police had refused the assistance of the Australian Federal Police in testing the drugs and in fingerprinting the bag?
Downer:
I wasn’t exactly surprised but I mean we obviously made that request and that request was rejected. This is in Indonesia, this wasn’t in Australia and it’s their sovereign right to make those decisions.
Monica:
Were you unhappy with that decision?
Downer:
We made a request so obviously, so ipso facto that was what I wanted.
Monica:
Would you be prepared to approach the Indonesian Foreign Minister on this issue, your counterpart over there since he…?
Downer:
I’ve discussed the case with the Foreign Minister, I’m not going into the details of that but I have mentioned it to him.
Monica:
And was he understanding?
Downer:
“Well, It’s a matter for the courts” is of course going to be his response and it was.
Monica:
And you’re satisfied with that or did that displease you?
Downer:
Well I mean look, come one. You cannot expect the Indonesian Foreign Minister to ring up the judge and tell the judge to acquit someone. No country is going to run on that basis, that would be an outrage.
Monica:
And that was the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer ending Sunday Profile for this week. Thanks to Jennifer Feller, the producer and Dan Driscoll, the technical producer. Send us an e-mail if you want to and if you can. Just go to abc.net.au/sundayprofile and click on the guest book icon. Stay with us now for Speaking Out. I’m Monica Attard, talk to you next week.
Sunday, 13 March 2005
Flash Back
http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/stories/s1321407.htm
This week three people with a critical role to play in determining the fate of Schepelle Corby, - Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, sister Mercedes Corby and businessman Ron Bakir who is paying for the recently hired Australian lawyer .What evidence do they need, how are the family coping and what if anything can the government do to help.
ABC Interview
http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/sto ... 005_28.asx
Monica Attard
Hello, Monica Attard here and you’re listening to Sunday Profile.
Tonight the trial of Schapelle Corby, the 27-year-old Australian who’s facing the death penalty in Indonesia for allegedly smuggling 4.20 kilograms of Marijuana into Bali.
Mercedes Corby had no idea what hell the next five months would hold for her and her family when she received a phone call last October to say her sister was being questioned by Indonesian customs. Schapelle Corby arrived in Bali on a holiday. She checked in her luggage including a boogie board bag to Brisbane International Airport and she says that the first she knew of the 4 kilograms of Marijuana was when she went to collect her luggage at Denpasar Airport. Customs officers opened the boogie board bag and there were the drugs. But getting evidence to prove her story, that she hadn’t placed the drugs in her bag has been a trial in itself. The CCTV film of her checking in her luggage is nowhere to be found. Then there’s the question of the Australian Federal Police were asked or offered to test the Marijuana to find out whether it was in fact grown in Australia or was Indonesian grown. Well now all attention is focused on the baggage handler at Brisbane airport, who was he or she and what did they see.
First tonight to Mercedes’ sister Corby who sees her sister daily Bali prison, what happened the night her sister was arrested?
Mercedes Corby
Yes, really different. I’ve seen a different side of Bali that I didn’t think was there.
Monica:
What do you mean by that?
Mercedes:
Just things that, you know I love Bali but just, usually people don’t have to deal with someone being in jail.
Monica:
Can you tell us about the night that Schapelle was arrested?
Mercedes:
Just, you know, I got the call from Katrina and I first thought she was joking and then she put a policeman onto me and then when I actually got to customs they were all in a room and there was just customs officers everywhere and when I’ve seen the stuff in the middle of the room it was a shock, like my legs collapsed and a lot of it’s still a bit of a blur but it’s still really scary.
Monica:
And what was Schapelle’s demeanour then, how was she?
Mercedes:
She was in shock, she was just there with her head in her hands and, yes…shock.
Monica:
And so what was your involvement at that point? What were you saying, what were you doing?
Mercedes:
I was asking a lot of questions with the police and I was asking while they were all touching her to take fingerprints. They were asking her to sign forms, statements and I said, “No, don’t sign them”. Then when we finally left I got a hold of the Australian consulate and got an English speaking lawyer for her.
Monica:
And when you contacted the Australian consular officials what was their reaction?
Mercedes:
I can’t remember. It was like 11.30 at night and I just told them what happened. I think I did most of the talking. I don’t think they really spoke much and then they rang me back with the names and phone numbers of some English speaking lawyers and then the next morning the at the police station the consulate was there.
Monica:
Did you think at that time that your sister would still be in jail, 5 months later facing the death penalty?
Mercedes:
No, I don’t know. I didn’t really think at that time, it was just panic and shock that…no, I didn’t think it would be like this.
Monica:
Did you think there was a possibility that this claim could be true?
Mercedes:
No, never.
Monica:
Are you scared for Schapelle now?
Mercedes:
Yes, I’m really scared but I just don’t think about the bad things I just think, try and think positive. That’s all we can do.
Monica:
How often do you see her?
Mercedes:
Everyday. Sometimes I don’t see her Saturday/Sundays because there’s no visiting. Occasionally they’ll let her visit, but everyday during the week, sometimes twice.
Monica:
And have you seen any change in her in the time that she’s been in jail?
Mercedes:
Yeah she’s trying stronger than I ever thought she was. She’s really strong but then I don’t know what she’s like when she goes back to her room by herself but in front of us she’s strong.
Monica:
Does she tell you much about how she is living there?
Mercedes:
Yes, she tells us a bit but I don’t think she, she doesn’t go into full detail because she doesn’t want us to worry anymore than we already are.
Monica:
Is she satisfied that she’s getting the help that she needs, legally from the Australian government?
Mercedes:
Legally yes. We know our lawyers are doing all they can and now that we’ve also got help from Mr Ronan and Robyn the lawyer in Australia, yes, we’re feeling good.
Monica:
And she’s happy with the help she’s getting from the Australian government?
Mercedes:
Well, yes when she gets it I suppose. I think she’s happy that she knows that she might get some help.
Monica:
What do you mean?
Mercedes:
Well, what help have they given so far?
Monica:
So she doesn’t think they have helped her?
Mercedes:
She hasn’t really said anything, she doesn’t know that, I’m just asking, “What help have they already given her?”
Monica:
What do you think; do you think they’ve given her any help?
Mercedes:
The consulate has made sure that she’s in good health and come and visit her but so far, they will I’m sure. They’ve just been watching and they’ll step in when the time is right because they can’t just come in, it’s an Indonesian court system. They can’t just come in and start overtaking it. I think they’ve just got to watch and make sure things are going the way it’s meant to.
Monica:
What do you talk about when you visit Schapelle?
Mercedes:
Just, what I’m doing, the kids, food, sometimes a bit about the case…just who I’ve had to see and maybe talk about the court and just normal things that everybody talks about. We never talk about the, I don’t even want to say the word, what penalties they want to give her and stuff. We don’t talk about that.
Monica:
You don’t talk about that at all?
Mercedes:
No.
Monica:
Because you’re confident that she’ll walk free?
Mercedes:
I hope so, but why talk about it? Just, we’ve got to stay positive and if we talk about it, it will just bring us down and we can’t. We have to stay strong.
Monica:
So how is the rest of the family coping?
Mercedes:
Dad’s probably taking it the hardest, the rest of us just…I don’t know. I don’t know what the word is.
Monica:
You’re just coping?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
Now you’re giving evidence in court next week is that right?
Mercedes:
Yes, as far as I know, yes.
Monica:
And that will be about the night that you were called to the airport?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you saw?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you were told?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
And what you said?
Mercedes:
Yes.
Monica:
Can you tell us you know, what you will be telling the court in detail?
Mercedes:
I don’t’ know what they’re going to ask me but the main thing is just going to be that I asked them to check the fingerprints and tell them to stop touching the bag and that’s really it. I don’t have too much to say really. I think the witnesses last week were the most important and if we can get people from the airport, Brisbane Airport.
Monica:
So Mercedes will you stay now in Bali until this is all over?
Mercedes:
Yes, I’ll stay here.
Monica:
Okay. Mercedes I thank you very very much for your time.
Mercedes:
Okay, thank you.
Monica:
Mercedes Corby, Schapelle Corby’s sister.
Well, Ron Bakir is a Gold Coast mobile phone entrepreneur who’s decided to bank roll the Corby case but why did he want to get involved to begin with?
Ron:
This whole case does not make sense to me from the start to the finish. All I want to do is ensure that Michelle Corby gets given a fair trial, that all the evidence be put before the court to ensure that she gets a fair trial.
Monica:
But why did you feel the need to get involved?
Ron:
Because nobody else was, the Australian government definitely were not. Indonesian lawyers have been trying to get certain information from the Australian government for the past five months, since the eighth of October, the day she was arrested and they’ve been getting absolutely nothing.
Monica:
It must be costing you a fortune.
Ron:
Yes, I guess but it’s not an issue of money because money can be spent and, but money goes and money comes but when Schapelle Corby’s life goes you can never get it back.
Monica:
why have you requested the involvement of Australian lawyers when she actually has lawyers acting for her in Indonesia?
Ron:
Sure, that’s a very good question and the reason for that is the Indonesian lawyers can only do so much, being so far. They need information from Australian lawyers because all of the information took place in Australia. From the moment she walked into Brisbane airport to the moment she handed in her baggage at the Carousel to the moment she walked over her oversized baggage to the oversized counter and through the Sydney terminal until she got to Bali. All of that process, all of those information need to be supplied.
Monica:
Can you clear up a few issues for us or help us to clear them up in our own heads at least? There has been some dispute as to the CCTV evidence, the tapes. Some people say that the cameras weren’t working in Brisbane International Airport that day, others say that the evidence, the tapes were working but that the…they were destroyed within hours, others say that they were destroyed within five days, others believe that they lasted 25 days. Do you know?
Ron:
The Australian government were notified that Schapelle Corby was arrested on the eighth of October. The Australian government and the Australian officials, everyone to do with the security surveillance equipment, everyone to do with the baggage handling and all of that were notified on the ninth of October of her arrest and were notified that certain information like what you just said, the CCTV cameras need to be secured. Like baggage screening devices need to be secured. Now, that has not been done. We get many different responses as you just said, the correct answer is yet to come out but all we do know is that that information is not available. Now, had that information been available Schapelle Corby wouldn’t be sitting in a Bali cell today.
Monica:
Let’s assume that those, that evidence is not going to be available to her defence lawyers. There’s the issue also of the Australian Federal Police, they’re examination or their desire to examine the Marijuana for its origin, their desire to look at the bags to fingerprint them adequately. Now that hasn’t happened. Is that a very major blow to her case?
Ron:
That is detrimental to her case. Look what would have saved Schapelle Corby’s life would have been this: The TV scan images, when you scan your bag.
Monica:
What would they have shown?
Ron:
That would have shown that when she checked in there
A) There was no Cannabis
B) It was impossible for somebody to miss 4 ½ kilos of Cannabis.
When you walk through any international terminal even if you’re trying carry scissors, small scissors, they see it. How can they not see 4 ½ kilos of cannabis?
Monica:
Because it’s metal, one’s metal, one’s not.
Ron:
But you can see it on the screen. You can see anything; you can see paper on the screen.
Monica:
And the AFP examination?
Ron:
The Australian Federal Police say we have requested from the Indonesian authorities and the Indonesian government so we’ve had no request from the Indonesian government and we’ve had no request from the AFP. We said, “Righto, if you’ve made that request, why don’t you give us the request document? You must have sent them a letter and they must have denied it in writing. Why don’t you give us this correspondence?”
Monica:
So you don’t believe the AFP?
Ron:
The way I’ll answer that is this. I need to see and so do the lawyers, need to see the correspondence between both parties so they can go to the courts and say, “These are the correspondence, the Indonesian authorities are denying that the Australian government test this product.” To date we haven’t got that information.
Monica:
Then there’s the issue of the baggage handler at Brisbane International Airport. You met with the Foreign Minister, Mr Alexander Downer last week, you asked him to take some action with Qantas so that Qantas would provide you with the name of the baggage handler, has that happened?
Ron:
Yes, that has happened. We’ve spoken to Qantas on numerous occasions, Qantas is being very helpful in producing that, those documentation and the name of the baggage handler but we’re yet to see it. And, I need to stress the importance of this: everybody involved in this, Qantas, Alexander Downer and the government need to understand that Schapelle Corby does not have weeks, she does not have days, we are working with hours and if this is not produced within hours, it’s going to be to the detriment of Schapelle Corby’s life.
Monica:
What do you hope that the baggage handler is going to tell you?
Ron:
That I won’t disclose.
Monica:
But are you hoping that he will say that he checked inside the bag or…
Ron:
I cannot answer that question.
Monica:
You believe that perhaps he or she may have been involved in it?
Ron:
That I cannot answer.
Monica:
Do you believe that that person may have seen somebody else tampering with the baggage?
Ron:
That question I cannot answer as well.
Monica:
But you believe that you will get that name and get it soon and that you’ll be able to speak to that person.
Ron:
According to Qantas, yes.
Monica:
Will her lawyers seek to subpoena him to Bali?
Ron:
Her lawyers will be seeking to ask him to attend Bali to give evidence. I just hope that the gentleman that comes forward after we speak to him does go and give evidence of his own free will.
Monica:
How confident are you, at the end f the day that Schapelle Corby will walk free?
Ron:
It’s all a matter of all of the evidence that’s been produces will determine the outcome at the end of the day and I just hope that the CCTV Cameras do end up working and do end up being provided.
Monica:
Ron Bakir, a Gold Coast businessman helping out the Corby family.
Well the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer says the government is doing all it can to help Schapelle Corby but it is not her defence team and ultimately her fate lies in the hands of the Indonesian judicial system. Mr Downer has intervened to persuade Qantas to cooperate with Corby’s lawyers for potential vital information, particularly in relation to the Brisbane Airport baggage handler who checked in Schapelle Corby’s luggage …..but in reality what can the Australian government do to help Schapelle Corby whose case is back in court this week?
Downer:
Well, there are two things. First of all we can provide consular assistance, which we’ve been doing, that’s assistance to her in the prison she’s being held in Bali, but secondly, we can help the defence obtain information. Now that’s not very easy to do because a lot of the information that they would like, which they think would be truly effective is not available. For example, I met with Schapelle Corby’s lawyers earlier this week and we talked through the sorts of evidence they are trying to obtain and look, I me and my office will do what it can to try to help them, for example, talk to Qantas and the like.
Monica:
Can we talk a little bit about those evidentiary issues because they seem to be pretty important, in fact her only chance seems to lie with finding some evidence, visual or by weight, the marijuana was not in her boogie bag when she left Brisbane international airport. Now Qantas says that the evidence, the CCTV tapes have been wiped and that they are in fact wiped within hours of being taken. Do you know for a fact that those particular tapes were wiped within hours?
Downer:
Look, I mean, personally obviously I had nothing to do with it but as I understand it the, that is the normal practice, yes.
Monica:
And those particular tapes were wiped?
Downer:
As far as I know, yes. Of course, you don’t know whether the tapes would be of any use in any case.
Monica:
Because there was as report in a newspaper recently that those tapes were still in existence 25 days after she was arrested.
Downer:
Yes, that I don’t honestly know. I can just tell you what I’ve been told. I mean, obviously I’m not the Minister for the tapes.
Monica:
But there also seems to be dispute over whether or not the cameras were working but presumably if you’ve been in contact with the airport authorities…have you been in contact with the airport authorities?
Downer:
Well my department has, yes.
Monica:
So can we get back to the issue of how fast these tapes appear to have been wiped, I mean within hours? It seems extraordinary really. Is that something that bothers you?
Downer:
Well I don’t know enough about it to be honest; it doesn’t fall within my portfolio.
Monica:
But in relation to, I imagine the broader issue as well or am I wrong in that? To determine perhaps a new regime, a new way of looking at security?
Downer:
No, we don’t have any particular problems with the security at the airports but you know, that obviously is handled by the Department of Transport and Regional Development in consultation with some of our security services. As far as the certain assistance as the Foreign Minister I can provide, then where the defence are having difficulty in obtaining information or in particular sitting down and talking to particular potential witnesses, I have offered to intervene and have been able to intervene, particularly in relation to Qantas.
Monica:
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Downer:
Well, it’s really a matter for the defence. They’ve come to see me. I’ve heard them out. There are bits and pieces of information they would like, I’ve ensured that contact is made including with Qantas to try to get information and as far as I know they are responding pretty positively at this stage.
Monica:
And are they prepared to say who the baggage handler was at Brisbane International Airport?
Downer:
Well you wouldn’t say who these people were publicly but Qantas are getting into discussions now as a result of my intervention with the defence lawyers about that matter.
Monica:
So, it’s basically up to the person involved to say whether or not he or she wishes to be identified?
Downer:
That really is something that Qantas and the lawyers, the defence lawyers are going to sort out themselves.
Monica:
So you’re happy that Qantas are being cooperative?
Downer:
From what I’ve heard so far, they have been cooperative, yes. They’ve been more cooperative since we’ve spoken to them this week.
Monica:
Because I imagine they feel a fair degree of sensitivity on this issue, not only because a women’s life is on the line but also because presumably it’s fairly important to get these issues sorted out, particularly in light of the fight against terror which your government is backing. I mean, are you worried in light of this case that someone could, you know start out form Australia to carry out a terrorist attack somewhere with equipment that manages to escape detection here and yet within a very short period of time all evidence of whatever they might have taken out is destroyed.
Downer:
No, not really. I mean of course, in terms of identifying material being moved out of Australia as distinct from moved into Australia what the authorities look for are bombs and explosives that might kill people on an aeroplane. In particular on an aeroplane that could be used of course at a destination they don’t have a detection system, I don’t know if such a detection system even exists that can just through X-Ray detect drugs. I don’t think there is such a system.
Monica:
But, you know tapes; camera tapes would be able to tape people who were fiddling with luggage, for example.
Downer:
Yes, this is…you’re getting back to the tapes again, yes. Well, I suppose that’s right.
Monica:
It seems fairly critical, does it not?
Downer:
You think, you think if you were a drug trafficker you would be I wouldn’t have thought if you were a drug trafficker. I mean, this is just a hypothesis on my part but I wouldn’t have thought you’d be loading drugs into someone else’s bag in front of a camera.
Monica:
No, but I guess if drugs are found to have been placed in that bag, at this end it doesn’t say all that much about baggage checking procedures, does it?
Downer:
Ah, but you’re making an assumption that that’s what happened. We don’t know if that is what happened, they could have been placed in the bag, perhaps when they arrived in Indonesia.
Monica:
Does this case throw up any issues for government to look at more closely, for you to look at in consultation with the Transport Minister? I mean, what about for example, you know legislating that there are inspections of bags and cars to check what staff who work in aviation security are bringing in and out?
Downer:
Hey, well.
Monica:
I mean, have those discussions taken place at a government level?
Downer:
Sure, they have. We in the Australian government operate on the basis of what is practical, not on what is impractical. There are millions and millions of pieces of baggage that pass through Australian airports every year. If you started a system of inspecting every single one, including for things like drugs, it would create a complete shambles. Of course, in recent times as a result of terrorism there’s been a substantial enhancement of the capacity to inspect baggage coming and out of Australia.
Monica:
But there have also been cases where baggage handlers at Sydney airport have been arrested for innocent human mules to carry drugs aboard for them.
Downer:
Yes, I mean, I don’t know about that. You’d have to talk to the police.
Monica:
Well as the Foreign Minster if Qantas are playing ball and they do tell the defence who the baggage handler was, is there anything that you can do to help ease the issues concerning subpoenaing him to appear in the Corby case in Bali?
Downer:
Well, you know let’s not run ahead of ourselves here, I’m not setting myself up for the defence lawyer for Schapelle Corby. She has her own defence lawyers but I think the main thing is for them to be able to talk to Qantas about what actually happened on the day with the luggage and see whether the baggage handler or the relevant baggage handlers have any useful information to impart or whether they don’t. It’s possible but it’s probably unlikely because I would imagine they check-in, even on that one day they check in hundreds if not thousands of pieces of baggage, whether they’d remember one boogie board bag? Hard to know.
Monica:
And of course five months later even harder to remember no doubt.
Downer:
Yes, of course.
Monica:
And is that something that bothers you as well? The fact that her lawyers and the businessmen backing her case in Queensland claim that she’s basically being cut loose, that the government didn’t act fast enough, they should have jumped on it faster.
Downer:
Well, I’m not exactly sure what the government was supposed to have done. I mean, I, can I just say, with the greatest of respect for people who are campaigning for Schapelle Corby, I do respect them and I understand their concerns. We have a lot of Australians who are in prison and in difficulties overseas. We’re dealing with them everyday and in her particular case where there’s information that is available, obviously that will be provided to the defence lawyers, but where information is not available, there’s nothing that can be done. I mean you can get into a slanging match with the relevant Ministers about whether this tape should have been kept for a longer period or whether some baggage should have been inspected in a particular way and it wasn’t. And, of course you know if you came up with a silver bullet for her defence you’d use it…
Monica:
But she’s facing the death penalty and five days after her arrest they asked for the film.
Downer:
Well you just be, just be…yes well apparently it was wiped within hours or in a very short period of time but just a sec. Let us not hyperventilate over this, the absolute maximum penalty is death. It is not to say that she is certainly going to get the death penalty.
Monica:
Whatever she gets, she’s likely to be in jail, is that correct? If she’s convicted.
Downer:
Well, I mean if she’s convicted. Let’s not assume she’s going to be convicted.
Monica:
Did it bother you when you heard the evidence that the Indonesian police had refused the assistance of the Australian Federal Police in testing the drugs and in fingerprinting the bag?
Downer:
I wasn’t exactly surprised but I mean we obviously made that request and that request was rejected. This is in Indonesia, this wasn’t in Australia and it’s their sovereign right to make those decisions.
Monica:
Were you unhappy with that decision?
Downer:
We made a request so obviously, so ipso facto that was what I wanted.
Monica:
Would you be prepared to approach the Indonesian Foreign Minister on this issue, your counterpart over there since he…?
Downer:
I’ve discussed the case with the Foreign Minister, I’m not going into the details of that but I have mentioned it to him.
Monica:
And was he understanding?
Downer:
“Well, It’s a matter for the courts” is of course going to be his response and it was.
Monica:
And you’re satisfied with that or did that displease you?
Downer:
Well I mean look, come one. You cannot expect the Indonesian Foreign Minister to ring up the judge and tell the judge to acquit someone. No country is going to run on that basis, that would be an outrage.
Monica:
And that was the Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer ending Sunday Profile for this week. Thanks to Jennifer Feller, the producer and Dan Driscoll, the technical producer. Send us an e-mail if you want to and if you can. Just go to abc.net.au/sundayprofile and click on the guest book icon. Stay with us now for Speaking Out. I’m Monica Attard, talk to you next week.
